Building Women | Claire Grinsteed | From Retail to Real Estate
Welcome to this month's episode of the Building Women podcast. Today, we are so pleased to have Claire Winstead, senior legal counsel in real estate finance at HSBC as our guest, where she manages real estate lending for housing, hotels, and development projects across The UK, overseeing a diverse team and a 102 stakeholders. Hi, Claire. Thank you so much for joining the podcast today. It's really good to have you.
Speaker 2:Hi, Julia. Thank you for inviting me on.
Speaker 1:You're welcome. We're gonna get cracking straight away. So if you can tell us a little bit about yourself, where you grew up perhaps, and perhaps a little bit of what you were like as a child.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. So at the moment, I'm senior legal counsel for HSBC for the commercial banks, so CMB, real estate team across The UK. That's about a 102 stakeholders that I look after across a sort of mixed team of real estate lending for housing, hotels, and sort of what I call sort of straight real estate in development and investment terms. So that's who I am now, I guess. And I guess going back to the beginning of my story.
Speaker 2:Forty years ago, I was born in Croydon. I still live actually about ten minutes down the road from where I grew up. My mom was a stay at home mom for me. She had worked before I was born, but she was a stay at home mom. She was a secretary for Hill Samuel who were a big financial services company in in Croydon.
Speaker 2:Actually, my parents met there. And my dad had a job in sort of training for financial services. I was only child. I like to say that my parents got me and decided to stop at perfection. I think my parents would dispute that's the reason I'm an only child.
Speaker 2:So I grew up here, went to a very normal little local primary school. But, yeah, I was very lucky that when I was at primary school, I had an amazing headmaster. And anyone that knows me on LinkedIn or looks at my LinkedIn profile will see that actually quite recently. I actually did a post about how influential my primary school headmaster had actually been on my life. I hadn't really realized until I'd actually spoken at a mentoring event where I'd been mentoring some young lawyers and have been asked to speak at their event.
Speaker 2:And somebody said who had really changed my life in in kind of the course of life that I would have had. And my old primary school headmaster's name was Eric Shaw. And I said to my grandfather, he said, do you realize you realize that's bright. Right? And I know that sounds a bit arrogant.
Speaker 2:But he said, do you realize she's bright? And they said, well, you know, we've realized she's alright. Right? Like, she gets two. She adds two.
Speaker 2:She gets to four. That's okay. And I was about 10, and he said, no. She's she maybe nine. And he said, no.
Speaker 2:She's she's really bright. Have you thought about private secondary school? And, of course, once my parents picked themselves up off the floor laughing because nobody in my family had ever been to a private school, there was no way that anyone could have afforded to go to private school. They said, well, that's lovely, but, yeah, we don't have loads of money. He basically convinced my parents to sit me for the entrance exams on the basis that there were scholarships and bursaries and things like that available.
Speaker 2:And I was lucky enough to pass the two entrance exams that I sat for. I was offered a scholarship to both of the schools. And having been on a tour of what was the old palace school of John Wickift, but actually most of the girls that went there a lot were on bursaries because Croydon is is in parts quite affluent, but not all of Croydon is very affluent. And, yeah, I was lucky enough to go there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what were you like as a child then? You're obviously very clever.
Speaker 1:Where do you think that? Do you think that came naturally to you, or do you think it was a combination of intelligence and being driven as well even at that young age?
Speaker 2:I think there's a bit of both. Hate that question because I do I do feel like it sounds arrogant to say this in as much as, oh, I think I am intelligent. I think I'm lucky that my genetics have given me the ability, you know, to to learn. I've always been quite lucky that I find learning easy. People raise their eyebrows at me about that and rather eyes.
Speaker 2:But if I went to classes or lectures at uni or whatever else, if I sat and paid attention throughout, it would stick with me. I learned very well by osmosis and listening. Was I the most dedicated at doing my homework or reading study notes. No. I I I didn't love study.
Speaker 2:I didn't hate studying, but I didn't love studying. But I always liked achievement. And I know that sounds terrible and maybe that's my only child syndrome. But I always really liked getting a pat on the head. I still do, actually.
Speaker 2:Really recognize I really recognize this in myself. I'm very motivated by being patted on the head. And my dad had always kind of instilled in me quite early on that his hope for me was that I would step up another tear up the ladder kind of thing. And I was incentivized by a I really wanted to do that for my parents. Like, was an a child.
Speaker 2:I did I did feel quite a weight of responsibility actually that I should do that and achieve and not let my parents down. I remember being really nervous about my a level results because I thought, oh my gosh. If I haven't passed these, my parents will be so disappointed in me. Not even hadn't passed, but if I haven't got straight a's. I know that sounds, you know, oh, my diamond shoes are too tight if I haven't got straight a's.
Speaker 2:But that was sort of the expectation of our school was that if you were smart and you'd done well that, you know, if you were predicted these grades, you would get them and, you know, you would go off to Oxford or Cambridge, neither of which I did. I I did get the grades. I didn't go to Oxford or Cambridge. I sort of had a bit of a rebellion. I I appreciate this is like a really small r rebellion and that I just refused to go to Oxford or Cambridge much to my teachers annoyance.
Speaker 2:Much to my annoyance over the course of the years, I've realized that they were probably right, and I probably should have gone to Oxford or Cambridge because, actually, I would have done much better in the environment where I had shorter terms and more intensive learning and sort of more small class time because I actually dropped out of uni halfway through. There you go. There's a bombshell.
Speaker 1:So so where did you go, what did you do, and why did you drop out?
Speaker 2:So I ended up going to Sheffield. Mhmm. I remember sitting in the IT Room in our school, having to do UCAS applications and personal statements and things online and picking universities. Sheffield did have the best politics department in the country at the time. I didn't really know what I wanted to be when I grew up.
Speaker 2:I thought maybe I wanted to be a lawyer. Maybe I wanted to be a banker. I didn't want to be a doctor because I thought that sounded a bit messy. And I wanted to wear nice shoes. I knew that.
Speaker 2:I didn't think I could trot around an a and e department in four inch stilettos all day. And I was quite motivated. I'll be honest, I was quite motivated by the idea of earning money and having nice holidays. I think that very glamorous again, I'm gonna age myself here. Ali McBeal kind of lifestyle.
Speaker 2:Right? I thought, you know, that wouldn't this just be fabulous? I I think I think probably the the shock headline there is it wasn't quite as glam as Ali McBeal when I did actually turn up to be a trainee. Well, that's
Speaker 1:well before that program for our generation, I
Speaker 2:think. Exactly. Yeah. That's probably maybe suits for the younger generation, maybe after that, I can't go reference. But yeah.
Speaker 2:So I I applied to Shepherd because I had good politics problem. I didn't know what to do. So his teacher said, well, if you wanna maybe be a lawyer, maybe do this or the other. Do a nice generalist degree, you know, languages. I did languages at a level.
Speaker 2:And so I did politics, and I did politics at a level and economics as And so I did politics. But actually, loads of my friends were going to Sheffield, which felt like a really good reason to go there. I appreciate now. This is probably I don't know if this is good advice to give to younger generation. Don't pick university based on where your mates are going.
Speaker 2:You'll make new mates. That's fine. But at the time, it felt like a really solid life choice to just go where your mates were going. So I noticed
Speaker 1:I picked my uni for a boy.
Speaker 2:Oh. So it's
Speaker 1:even worse.
Speaker 2:As as it happened, my boyfriend did also go to Sheffield at the time. Oh, well, there
Speaker 1:you go then.
Speaker 2:And funny enough, although none of this was planned because he didn't read law and I I shan't name it, but he is actually now a lawyer in a in a big city London law firm too. So apparently, there was a career path destined there. But yeah. I went to Sheffield. I loved first year living in halls, like, going to lectures and, you know, all of that sort of stuff was great.
Speaker 2:I did enjoy the social life too. And second year, I ended up living kind of quite far out with some friends. And I got a job in Meadowhall, which is the the massive sort of out of town shopping center. And I ended up I just loved it. I really liked the working.
Speaker 2:I was working in Coast, which again probably ages me a bit, but was kind of bridesmaid dresses and black tie outfits and, you know, fancy wedding things like that. And I loved loved loved every minute of it. And I worked with this amazing group of girls. And I sort of realized by then I'd changed boyfriends, and the current boyfriend was in in London. And I was traveling back to London all the time, and I was working more than I was going to uni.
Speaker 2:And I went my dad drove me back mom and dad drove me back to Sheffield after the Christmas break, unpacked all my stuff, and I stood on the doorstep to say goodbye. And I am not one of life's criers generally, but I just burst out into tears and went, don't go. And my dad, I could just see looked horrified. He was like, oh my gosh. What do I do with this?
Speaker 2:And my parents are great about it. I said, I don't wanna be here. I hate it. Like, you know, I spend all my time coming back to London and this, that, and the other, and, you know, working more than I'm studying, and I just I don't wanna be here. I'm unhappy.
Speaker 2:And, again, really felt like I'd let my parents down. But they were amazing about it, actually. And so my dad gave me drove me back to London, packed all my stuff up, drove me back to London. The only thing that he told me off for was I really wish you'd have told me this at six in the morning before we'd packed all your stuff and driven to Sheffield, which is a fair comment. You just
Speaker 1:have to go through the process.
Speaker 2:I I think I actually did, to be honest. But, yeah, they were really nice about it. And my dad said, right. You've got a fortnight. Said you've a fortnight.
Speaker 2:Sit on the sofa. Feel sorry for yourself. Do what you wanna do. You better work out what you're gonna do with the rest of your life. And I was like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I rang the university and said, I haven't come back. What can I do? And they actually said I could suspend my second year. So I did a bit of research, and you could actually transfer your degree halfway through.
Speaker 2:Royal Holloway had a great course and was actually just around in Egham. I ended up living at home, and I transferred my degree. And so I had a sort of gap half year in the middle of my degree. So I went and worked in retail. Having always worked I've I've worked in retail from when I was 16.
Speaker 2:I absolutely loved working in retail. I love sales. I love doing the kind of fashion y, personal shopping y kind of stuff with that. But So in the September, I then went back to uni, and I became on the side a personal shopper for Coast in Regent Street. They opened their big Regent Street flagship store, and they had, like, a personal shopping suite.
Speaker 2:And I was their Sunday manager and kinda did the personal shopping stuff as well for them.
Speaker 1:Amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It was it was amazing. It was great fun, and we got amazing discounts. So I remember also, I used to buy all of these, like, duchess satin cocktail dresses and things because you used to wear them in the store for uniform as I'm sure you did in Clarendon. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And with the view that one day when I was a grown up lawyer, I was gonna go to as many, many fabulous parties that I would wear these dresses to. Well, firstly, by the time I became a lawyer, I couldn't get in any of them. Secondly, I definitely didn't go to that many fabulous parties that Ally McBeal had led me to believe I would be off to. No. No.
Speaker 2:Much more much more serious than that. But yeah. So I went back to uni and finished my degree. But, actually, in the process of having dropped out, I also had to decide what I want to do with my life. So I decided I thought I would try being a lawyer.
Speaker 2:If I became a lawyer, I could go to uni for a couple more years, and that sounded like a great idea. And I figured out that law firms would sponsor you and, you know, all of that sort of stuff. So that led me to apply. So I actually applied for my training contracts when I was in my middle midway gap year. So in the second year of a non law degree.
Speaker 2:So I was quite early in applying for training contracts Oh, wow. Which worked out really well for me because I got my training contract in 2006 for a 2010 start, and then the GFC happened. So I was very lucky that I had already got a training contract before that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Because they are so we must have graduated at a similar time. So I came out of uni 02/2005, then worked in retail for a year and a half, and so I need to use this law degree. And, yeah, they were pulling pulling training contracts left, right, and center in 02/2008.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's really lucky. And actually, that was probably enough buffer as well, wasn't it, for 2010? Because it was kind we were kinda coming slowly back out of out of the nightmare by then.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah. I graduated the 2007, and then I did GDL and LPC because I've done a politics degree Yeah. Which the firm that I worked for were very kind pay for because my dad had also said to me, well, not going to law school unless someone's paying for it. So I'm glad you've worked out that law firms will do this.
Speaker 2:If you can if you can get sponsored, that would be great. Yeah. And then I rolled out of law school in the 02/2009, and then actually I got another retail job to see me over. I went traveling. I flew home from San Francisco on the Friday and started work at my law firm on the Monday.
Speaker 1:Wow. Oh, that's
Speaker 2:very that was a good idea. Was a bit jet lagged. If you didn't do those things then.
Speaker 1:You can get away with stuff like that at that age though, can't you? You could go out one night and turn up to work the next morning. I'm so fine. Just
Speaker 2:Exactly right.
Speaker 1:A bit cloudy. Which law firm was that then? So where did you start
Speaker 2:your kind of So I got my training contract at Pinceton Masons. Mhmm. And I trained at Princeton's in London. And because they were one of the few firms that didn't stipulate you had to be in the third year of a non law degree to apply. So when I was in this sort of second year hiatus, I looked at a lot of the firms and worked out, and it was Pinzon Masons and Simmons and Simmons were the two that I identified would take me.
Speaker 2:And I have to confess as well. I hadn't come from my parents didn't have, like, lawyer friends and, you know, all that sort of stuff. I didn't really know anything about it, so I printed off just a list from the Internet. It must have been, like, the Legal five hundred or Legal one hundred or whatever it was in those days of just who were the biggest law firms in The UK and sort of just started at the top. And I had no idea who these people were.
Speaker 2:And just sort of started working my way down and and seeing who would take what and, you know, who sponsored what, etcetera. So I applied to those two firms, and I got an assessment day at Simmons and a VAT scheme at Pinsons. It's a VAT scheme. And so it felt like having spent two weeks at Pinsons, you know, having got the training contract offer, I was like, you know, great. I've met these people for a whole two weeks and they were lovely.
Speaker 2:So I will I will come and work for them. And to be honest, it was a brilliant idea, and I absolutely loved it. I I know we all have days in the office, but I look back very fondly on my time that I spent, you know, doing my training contract in my my early years in my career as a transactional lawyer. And actually, I wouldn't be where I am in terms of the jobs I have now other than for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Look. So I I'm interested because you had so so for you, I guess, at the time, you said about not wanting to disappoint your parents and things, but obviously you had the sort of stop start of uni. A lot of people would have seen that as a major setback, but you sound like you you were really driven and actually I don't have words into your mouth, but it seems like that was a really actually great time to reflect and reassess and kind of get everything. Because to say that was when you applied for your training contracts or for the VAT schemes and things.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly right. It it was definitely a good focus point because I think it it so it was sort of just accepted that the girls at my school would go off to university. Right? And so I thought I would just be 21 and have a degree, and that was all kind of fixed until that point.
Speaker 2:And suddenly, there I was 19, not at university. And I was thinking, what do I do? And I work I'd say I'd always worked in retail from when I was 16, like Sunday jobs, Sunday manager jobs, all that sort of stuff. And I really liked it. And I thought maybe I'll stay in retail.
Speaker 2:I think I would have really enjoyed it, and I think I probably would have done well with it. It's been a couple of times when I thought maybe that was a bit of a sliding doors moment in my life. Like, how different would my life have been if I'd have gone off to be a senior retail manager versus go and be a junior lawyer at, you know, at twenty twenty years old or, you know, whenever I'd have been. But, actually, again, that weight of expectation, that sort of feeling that this was a plan that was there for my life that my parents had worked towards and scrimped and saved. But I realized now the things that my parents did sacrifice Mhmm.
Speaker 2:To put me through that school. So yeah. So I think that that was a bit of a sliding doors moment where I thought, I've still got to do this, and I want to do this, and I want to, you know, be aspirational in what I'm doing. So it definitely focused my mind. But my my parents were very kind, and they let me live at home rent free when I came back from uni.
Speaker 2:But my dad didn't give me any money. So if I needed any money, if I wanted to, you know, go out or buy clothes or do anything, I had to earn money. So which was totally fair, by the way. Like, I think I did pay some token amount of rent, but I think that was more like a life you know, like, you should if you earn if you're earning money, you should pay a bit of rent, which, again, totally fair. It made me think, well, am I just gonna go to uni?
Speaker 2:Am I gonna be a lawyer? How do I do it? I just sort of thought these things would fall into place, and then I realized I have to do a bit of work to to work it out. And again, I think I was lucky.
Speaker 1:How did yeah. How did you work it out? So how because you said, you know, you don't need lawyers in the family or family friends or anything like that. So you you sound I've met you a couple of times and you sound like you're super self self sufficient and did you just go about that yourself and just do the research because you knew that, right, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna focus.
Speaker 1:What do I need practically to get to where I wanna be?
Speaker 2:Yeah. There was a lot of googling, to be completely honest. I just googled, like, how I think I might have even just googled how do I become a lawyer. And, you know, I found out what was a GDL, what was an LPC. I know that SQEs now are not same labels, but you know?
Speaker 2:And then I looked at, you know, where do you do those? And it was I think at the time, it was more or less the College of Law or BPP if you were going to, you know, be in London kind of thing. And then I googled how much it was, and that was a bit of a stumbling block because that wasn't happening. Or I was gonna have to work for a bit longer to pay for it. You know, that was also an option.
Speaker 2:And, again, I think my parents would have helped me, certainly, you know, if they could have done. But I, you know, think it's of fair enough that it was like, well, if you can get sponsorship, you should you should try and get sponsored by a firm to do this, and you'll a job at the end of it. And I do remember calling my dad when I got the offer from Pincer Masons and saying, what should I do? Because I've been offered this training contract. But turns out there are other law firms that are, like, bigger than them or, you know, where I might earn more money or, you know, there's I've only applied to the ones that wouldn't that would accept an application this year.
Speaker 2:And my dad said, did you enjoy your time there? And I said, yes. And he went, are they a brilliant law firm? And I went, yeah, dad. Like, they're a massive law firm.
Speaker 2:And he went, would you think you'll be happy? And I said, yeah. I kinda think I will. And he went, I'll call them. And I was like, oh, alright.
Speaker 2:I know that sounds really stupid, but I was like, oh, okay. So I just sort of done this googling, and it was all a bit stabbing around in the dark. And that's why I do say lucky because I was lucky that, you know, yes, I could Google it and find things out. But, actually, that I got a a training contract, I mean, before the GFC, for example, for a start after the GFC. I was lucky that, you know, I also was perhaps interviewed by someone who was open to hearing about a story that wasn't just I'm at Oxford or Cambridge, but actually, I've dropped out of uni, and this is kinda what I wanna do.
Speaker 2:And and I I'm not saying that to be immodest because, obviously, I didn't interview terribly. But, you know, I think there was a a bit of luck involved in sort of, I don't know, right place, right time in in terms of those opportunities that I had.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think your career, if you like, in retail contributed towards you getting that training contract? Because just having come from a retail background as well, I do think it teaches you how to, you know, speak to all different types of people?
Speaker 1:You've got that, you know, transferable client service, client care skills and things.
Speaker 2:I'd I'd a 100% think so. And I still talk about this now in the context of being in private practice. I really enjoyed business development from, like, absolutely day one through the door that someone was kind enough to take me to a client drinks event kind of thing. And I don't mean the actual going out to the client things, but I liked talking to clients and finding out what they needed and and looking after clients. And that service part of, you know, being a lawyer.
Speaker 2:And, of course, ultimately, being a partner in a law firm, I think, you know, it it is a lot about sales. Right? Like, you're selling your legal services to customers. You create client relationships, and you people work with people that they find easily navigable and are helpful and understand their needs. And that definitely plays into an in house lawyer's role too.
Speaker 2:That it's, you know, it's about really being part of your team that you look after as as well as being a lawyer, you know, in a bank in my case. And I definitely think it made a difference because I went in and was asked about times that I'd made decisions or had to present or things like that. And I would say, well, actually, presented a, you know, a senior managers conference in front of, you know, directors and other managers from my business teams and this and the other. I'd, you know, been looking at p and l's, and I'd been hiring and firing and, you know, kind of running teams and budgets and all of that sort of stuff. And it I suppose, with hindsight, it actually was just a lot of experience that I would never have had No.
Speaker 2:Just coming straight from university. And as you say, just dealing I think I wrote on my CV that I was something like I was able to deal with people from all walks of life, which sounds a bit of a cliched kind of phrase. But, honestly, when you've worked in, you know, Slane Square, Kings Road, Sheffield, Regent Street, Croydon, there's a real mixture of people. Right? Like, you know, North South tourists, not tourists, wealthy people, less wealthy people.
Speaker 2:Like, you you know, you were you you talk to everyone as you will know in a kind of retail environment. And I think that has been helpful. I think most people that know me would also say probably that I could talk to a doorpost as well. So I I
Speaker 1:guess gonna say that.
Speaker 2:But you haven't said much. It's all been me talking. Exactly. You know, I I think loquacious is a word that is often used about me, and and I I definitely remember Claire should talk less or or words to that sort of effect being written on pretty much every school report I ever had.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But you've shown them now. So so you said you've ended up where you are now from off the back of the second. So talk us through that move and how that kinda came about.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when I was about three or four years qualified, I think, I had the team that I joined was a kind of expanding team. They were, you know, really growing. They've got a couple of amazing partners in, one of whom, gentleman called William Oliver, really focused on real estate finance and a lady called Francis Mallander. Francis is now a partner at Pinsons as well.
Speaker 2:So when I joined Pinsons, I put banking because I'd done my my VAT scheme in the banking team. And Francis was the only person he wasn't a partner that I'd sort of met before. But she just let me get involved in, you know, kind of rough things, and I enjoyed doing it. And so although you have to learn across the whole field of general banking transactions as a trainee and as a genie, you did a bit of everything. I guess by the time I was a couple of years qualified, I was working mainly on real estate finance transactions versus anything like leverage or acquisition finance.
Speaker 2:And so they said this is comment. Do you know? I think they said, do you want to go? I think sometimes when you're junior lawyer, get asked if you'd like to do stuff, and it's like, would I ever say no? But, yes, I actually really want to.
Speaker 2:Like, this would be amazing. But I, yeah, I had the opportunity. And my six months to come in, I think, turned into I think turned into about ten or eleven months to come in, and I had loved it. And, actually, I was asked about joining the team in a transaction manager's role at the time, whether I'd be interested. And I said I just didn't really think I'd learned enough about doing the deals, and I didn't I couldn't run a deal on my own yet.
Speaker 2:And, you know, I wasn't kind of doing all the drafting and things like that. I wanted to be a bit more technical before I would think about leaving private practice. So went back for a couple of years. And then the person that had been my second supervisor, a guy called Dan, he moved his role. He moved into a different role in house from the bank.
Speaker 2:And so he and I had a conversation. He said, would you be interested? And, you know, I interviewed, and I guess the rest is history to create a different podcast. But but but, yeah, I ended up, you know, I ended up kind of being offered the job at the bank. And, actually, I got offered a job at another law firm at the same time to go across doing, you know, real estate finance, but the route to partnership looked like it might have been a bit more open there and, you know, kind of different opportunities and different clients, very similar firm to the to where I was.
Speaker 2:And I just decided at the time if I'm gonna do something different, do you know what? I'm gonna do something different because I always thought maybe I'd be a lawyer or banker. Maybe I'll end up being banker. And so I came across the bank, and that was eight years ago now, which actually struck me the other day as so I've actually now been at HSBC longer than I've been at Pinsir Masons. And I was like, gosh.
Speaker 2:I still feel like one day my boss is gonna ring me and tell me it's time to get back from secondment. Like, I I think I still sit there every day just kinda thinking, maybe maybe at some point somebody will tell me I have get back to private practice.
Speaker 1:And do you do you enjoy your day to day jobs? What does a typical week look like? Or maybe there isn't a typical week.
Speaker 2:Good question. There probably isn't an entirely typical week, but the role that I have now is I'm really lucky that I sit with our transaction facing bankers. And I physically actually do sit with them as well, which is really nice. So I do, you know, become a part of their team as well as just being their in house lawyer. So I get to engage with both legal as a legal function and and the real estate finance team, which is amazing.
Speaker 2:I I get to work on, you know, exciting things, you know, and and great transactions and be involved with customers. I've been able to go out see things that we've financed or that we've, you know, given construction financing for. It really kind of for me, and I guess coming back to that retail thing, it gives me that ability to feel like I'm doing a service and I'm with people. And, you know, there is that kind of customer centricity around my role, which is obviously different because your customer is is is your law firm client when you're in a law firm. And and now my customer is the bank's client as such.
Speaker 2:But actually, I have that I I provide legal service in the middle somewhere. So there's sort of, you know, two hour internal guys to help them to help the customer. But it there's definitely no two days are ever the same, which is amazing. Although some days that doesn't feel amazing when you're thinking, I don't I don't I don't know if I've come across this before. Let me figure it out or it's a different query.
Speaker 2:But I think that's what lawyers are trying to do. Right? You're not necessarily trying to know the answer to every question. You're trying to to know how to find out the answer and how to work Yeah. With people.
Speaker 2:And I, you know, I work with a fantastic group of people internally, both lawyers and business team guys, and with fantastic professionals supporting us externally, you know, across the board of the professionals that we instruct. So it's, yeah, it's very it's very varied. And and the thing I like about real estate, which might sound a bit cheesy is I really love it when I see something that I've worked for a deal on. So I went to see some assets that we'd financed a couple of weeks ago. And on the train, on the way to visit these assets, I looked out the window and there was a particular brand of business.
Speaker 2:And I went, I remember I took the first legal charge over that building years ago. My golly just looked at me like, she's lost it. Like, we're on the train from Crewe, and she's just looking out the window fantasizing about real estate. She used to finance. But, you know, I I like the tangible nature of it.
Speaker 1:And what you said about, you know, every day is a school day type of thing. It's the same for us here, I think. It's exactly the same. And it keeps you interested. Right?
Speaker 1:It keeps you in the job because actually there aren't many careers, I don't think, where you're still learning sort of like fifteen, sixteen, eighteen years in. So that's really lovely as well. Are you allowed to talk about your what might be your favorite project that you've worked on?
Speaker 2:I think in terms of actually, favorite project that I worked on was something that I did at Pinsons. I have favorite projects at the bank too, but I probably do have to keep those anonymous. But my my favorite project was something that I worked on at Pinson's where my first ever trainee task was to make the closing transaction bible of documents for for financing. The actually, funny enough, the HSBC with the client for. And so I did that where you basically, you know, first week in the office and a and a and a senior lawyer just presents you with this box of original documents.
Speaker 2:Doesn't happen now because of DocuSign, I guess. But, you know, this box, archive box of bits of tassy paper and people's signatures here and there and, you know, you had to collect them altogether and make these documents and then turn them into a little mini a five bible as they were called. And I did that. And when I left Pinsons nearly eight years later, my final thing that I did at Pinsons having done many iterations of this deal in between with refinancings and taking supplemental legal charges as things came in and out of the security net. The last deal that I did, and I actually completed it the week before I left, was the final re the refinancing of that whole deal where I actually ran the facility document and ran kind of ran the financing part of the work with a partner supervising me.
Speaker 2:So I basically did, like, full cycle.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. So to end every episode, have you got a book or a podcast recommendation that you could perhaps talk about?
Speaker 2:So actually, my book recommendation is a little bit of a geeky one in as much as it's a, about Disney and b, about work. The the book that I've most enjoyed reading recently was a book called Be Our Guest, which is in reference to Beauty and the Beast. Again, AG me, my favorite Disney film. But it's actually a book by the Disney Institute about the Disney management and the Disney service culture and how that translates across into other industries and not just hospitality, and about how you treat people that work for you and people that are your customers and clients. And I remember just absorbing that book and being like, this is not only do I love Disney and the Disney brand and ethos, but, you know, this is exactly how I want to be as a as a manager and and a, you know, service provider.
Speaker 2:So a bit of a geeky book recommendation and that it's a workbook, but be our guest from the Disney Disney Institute is very good. And in terms of a podcast, so again, I am this is maybe a confession I shouldn't make in a serious work thing, but I don't watch or listen to very serious things when I'm outside of work. So I love the therapy crouch with Peter Crouch and Abby Clancy. I absolutely love that. They bicker like my husband and I, and I enjoy the fact that I really can empathize with where they're coming from in their in their momentary bickering in domestics.
Speaker 2:But you're more likely to see me on a train rather than with a book or listening to a podcast. You're more likely to see me watching an episode of The Real Housewives of Somewhere.
Speaker 1:Love that. Thank you so, so much for joining us today. It's been fab talking to you and really interesting hearing your story. So thank you for being so open with it and sharing it with all of us.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me, Julia.